In a Red State

Well, I've just discovered that facebook is actually hazardous to your health. At the very least regular sleeping habits. I was up late facebooking. Haven't slept a wink. I'm not at all tired though. I napped too much yesterday. Oh well. Anyway, up late on facebook last night trolling a discussion board which slowly digressed from a highly philosophical debate about the existence of god to a general discussion of sex, drugs and all things fun. Needless to say all the christians had already retreated to their bibles to find new quotes to make themselves look like (talking) asses. But as it turns out they weren't all gone. One of them stuck around. Watching silently. I knew things would get ugly when, after he asked me via facebook message to invite him to the group so he could discuss, he did not enter the conversation, but continued to message me asking for a screen name. When I finally clicked the confirm friend request (MSN messenger is weird like that) I formally (?) met my first ex-gay. Yeah, it was pretty rich. Stay tuned for the conversation. You know what to do. Careful though. It's loooonnnggg. Also, name's been changed to protect the identity of the delusional.

Red: AY!
BP: Hah.
BP: Oh shit.
BP: Sorry about that.
BP: Didn't get the alert.
Red: yeah
Red: that`s aight
Red: i thought i was doin somethin wrong
Red: i couldn`t read the notices
Red: i`m in chile right now, studying abroad, so the spanish directions are a tad confusing sometimes
BP: Whoa!
BP: That sounds like a nice summer getaway.
BP: How is it?
Red: awesome, but really hard at the same time
Red: i`ve only had three years, so i`m learning a LOT
Red: not just about the language, but about the people and, well, the other side of the world
BP: Yeah, it's gotta be strange. I think most americans forget there's a South version. LOL
Red: hehe
Red: or, as the chileans lo escribiría...jejeje
Red: ¿hablais o no?
BP: No.
BP: Took 4 years of Latin.
Red: oooo, nobody`s perfect
BP: Arguably a very big mistake.
Red: don`t feel bad
BP: Heh, no.
Red: lol
Red: are you studying medicine?
BP: Fuck no.
BP: My dad's a doctor.
Red: well, why the fuck not?
Red: lol
BP: I couldn't stand it.
BP: Because.
BP: I've met quite a few doctors.
BP: And I don't want to be like them.
BP: LOL
Red: lol
Red: well, that settles it then
Red: lol, how old are you?
Red: 19
Red: sry, i forgot that you HAVE A PROFILE
BP: You are psychic.
Red: lol
BP: Or else observant.
BP: Ah.
BP: The latter.
Red: that will be my major
Red: the divinity arts
BP: Hah.
BP: Bring new meaning to divining rods.
BP: Please.
BP: I'm so sick of people walking around with hangers. :P
Red: yes, that shall be my thesis
Red: lol
BP: Yes. Very yes.
Red: do you naturally type with nearly perfect grammar, or are those all like prestored responses?
BP: LOL
BP: I am a really really slow bot.
BP: No.
BP: Er, yes.
BP: I naturally type like this.
BP: No idea why.
Red: lol, that`s cool
BP: Making good writing/typing habits?
Red: it`s a good habit
Red: wow
Red: speaking of psychic...the grammy goes to...
Red: well, let`s talk about something, Peter
Red: are you up for a chat?
BP: Suuure.
[pause]
BP: Sory
BP: sorry*
Red: lol
BP: just sidetracked with other discussions.
BP: Which have mostly degenerated into discussion of cock size.
Red: ok...
Red: not sure how to go about that one...
Red: lol
BP: Yeah I'm sorry too.
Red: anyways
Red: i wanted to talk to you about something somewhat personal to me, but since you`re a complete stranger that I will likely never meet in my life, that`s awesome, eh?
Red: no estás ni ahí
Red: lol
BP: LOL
BP: Sounds perfect.
BP: Unless I'm actually your mother.
Red: AAHHHHH
BP: That would be creepy.
Red: lol
BP: I always worry about shit like that.
BP: Well, not always.
BP: But there's always that little voice in the back of my head...
BP: Sorry. Ima shut up now.
BP: Too much caffeine. Go on.
Red: and it`s saying `shut-up! You`re crazy!`
Red: lol
BP: Yes!
BP: OMF you hear them too!
BP: hahaha
Red: LOL
Red: well...
Red: First Question: When did you find out you were gay?
Red: TIME OUT
[is it legal to call timeout on your own play?]
Red: how open are you to questions like that???
Red: i don`t want to offend anyone
BP: Please, my life's basically an open book.
Red: lol
Red: well, then, the answer
BP: Ew, I'm not telling YOU.
BP: LOL
Red: jejeje
BP: I distinctly remember it being 6th grade.
Red: sooo, around puberty?
BP: Yep.
Red: and did you ever have any attraction towards girls at all?
BP: Attraction, yes. Sexual attraction not really.
Red: Not even the slightest?
BP: I love the ladies. I just could never actually bring myself to do anything sexual with them.
BP: Yeah. No.
Red: Did you ever believe in God?
Red: Q2...lol
Red: or do you?
BP: I did when I was little.
BP: I started pulling away from that about when I was a sophomore in high school.
BP: (Are these questions going somewhere or are you just infatuated?) LOL
Red: going somewhere
BP: Yay.
Red: lol
Red: well, let me put it this way...
Red: and PLEASE keep an open mind and hear me out
BP: K.
Red: growing up, I remember ever since fourth grade when I had a crush on my male teacher, I`ve been battling whether I was straight, gay, bi, human, whatever
Red: lol
BP: Wow. That's crazy talk. How could you ask me to keep an open mind about that?
Red: lol, not the end of the explanation
BP: Ah!
BP: I'm sorry.
BP: LOL
BP: Go on.
Red: About 7 months ago now, my parents broke up
BP: I'm sorry.
Red: my dad was cheating, and after a LOT of fighting, both of my parents became suicidal
Red: (again, not the end of the story)
BP: Holy crap.
Red: so, about 7 months ago, i started really going on a journey to find out what to do with my life
BP: Good luck. I'm still not sure. :/
Red: still battling the whole sexuality issue, not to mention the pressures of school, basketball, band, track, choir, student council, friends, and of course my extremely messed up family
Red: lol
BP: Holy shit. What college are you going to?
Red: luther
Red: relevancy?
BP: Just wondering. Busy track record. Sounds like you could get into any college you want.
Red: lol, thanks
Red: so, a friend of mine invited me to her church
Red: i really didn`t want to go, but ended up going anyways
Red: i had never really been in a church except for funerals and weddings, so it was WAY uncomfortable
Red: i thought, since I was on this journey, that maybe it might be a thing to try
Red: who knows?
Red: sooo...I went and started getting involved in the church
BP: "getting involved in"?
BP: THat could mean lots of things.
[pause]
Red: worshipping, youth group, mission trips, etc.
BP: Oh wow. That's quite involved.
Red: sorry for the pause
Red: i`m a habitual nail biter, and when things go wrong in that dept., i have to chew til they`re right
Red: lol
BP: Eek. use a manicure scissors.
BP: Much better for you.
BP: (Sometimes I'm so gay I make myself sick. LOL)
Red: anyways, to make a long story a short, I became a Christian and decided to live for that sacrifice that Jesus gave to us on the cross
Red: lol...again, relevency?
BP: Of my nail comment? None.
Red: OOOO, lol
Red: i get it now
Red: again with the whole over my head thing
Red: anyways
Red: much like you I was completely and totally driven toward homosexuality
Red: when i thought sex, i thought men, it was just what I wanted
BP: Yum. Go on.
Red: you can relate, no?
BP: Quite.
Red: so, i went to church one day, and heard the whole `what does the bible say about gays` speech
Red: which, of course, REALLY struck a chord with me
BP: A chord or a nerve?
BP: The importance is quite important.
Red: i knew it was something I had to persue, to find out WHAT in the world God wanted for my life, gay or straight, and what I actually was
BP: Er
BP: Difference
Red: Nerve
BP: LOL
Red: good point, tho
BP: Nerve.
BP: Gotcha.
Red: scroll up
Red: lol
BP: I did. YOu said "chord" originally. Never mind. Go on.
Red: no, the other thing
Red: i`m a lazy typer, so SCROLL damnit!
BP:


i knew it was something I had to persue, to find out WHAT in the world God wanted for my life, gay or straight, and what I actually was

BP: ?
BP: that?
Red: yea
Red: so, I read the bible, talked with pastors, so on and so on, and NEVER found out WHY THE FUCK God had created me to be `sinful`
Red: really, i was very close to falling away from faith just because of this conflict
BP: But?
Red: But...then I found a website about such things
Red: basically, it explained in a very sensical way the truth behind homosexuality
Red: here`s the low down :
BP: You mean a sensical interpretation of what the bible says about it.
BP: But go on. :)
Red: no, no
Red: the truth, not all of it is in the bible!
Red: really, take my word for it
BP: Well for now I'll have to. Continue.
Red: sorry, this time it was the right index finger
Red: lol
BP: Hah.
Red: the bible makes it pretty clear that homosexuality is a sin
BP: I could debate that.
BP: Quite well actually,
BP: LOL
BP: But go on.
Red: I wouldn`t say it`s debatable.
Red: How so?
BP: You sure you want to digress?
Red: ugh...it`s important, no?
BP: Quite.
BP: Well, for people who believe the bible.
BP: So for you, perhaps.
BP: For me, it's just fun.
Red: just show me where
BP: Okay.
BP: Everyone's favorite line.
BP: In...leviticus right?
BP: Man shall not lie with man as with woman.
BP: RIght?
Red: timeout
Red: let me find it in the book
BP: LOL
BP: K.
BP: Leviticus 18: 22
Red: ok, thanks
BP: Got it?
Red: see pos
Red: es
Red: yes
BP: Good.
BP: So. Man shall not lie with man.
BP: Right?
BP: Okay.
BP: So lesbianism is okay.
BP: Noo
BP: Not necessarily.
BP: They probably just grouped them together right?
BP: Also no.
BP: A few lines later it says "Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion."
BP: Which rules out gender lumping.
BP: The writers were clearly being quite specfic about who could have sex with whom.
BP: So why wouldn't they condone lesbianism?
BP: Because the old testament as a whole is largely a work dedicated to maintaining purity in order to perform the ritual sacrifices required by their god.
BP: And it's perfectly understandable that they'd think anal sex would be dirty and might require some cleansing before they could communicate with god.
BP: The same was true of lying with a woman on her period.
BP: That was considered equally abhorrent.
Red: timeout
BP: Okay.
Red: you lost me at the one about ritual sacrifices
Red: what ritual sacrifices do you speak of?
BP: Leviticus was written by the religious leaders as a set of rules for who could sacrifice to Yaweh.
Red: oic
BP: You broke the rules and you couldn't sacrfice to Yaweh. That would be bad cause it would make Yaweh unhappy and bring shame on them (and possisbly their house as well.)
Red: right
Red: i`m with you know
[his chilean keyboard was really bothering me by the way]
Red: go on
BP: Okay.
BP: There's also the matter of Babylon.
Red: timeout
Red: one more time
BP: The ancient city of.....okay
BP: lol
Red: ...what you brought up was a great point.
Red: however...
Red: remember that the old testament has gone through MANY translations over time
BP: Doesn't change that it was intended for ritual cleansing.
BP: Well leviticus anyway.
BP: And if it was so important to them they easily could have put the missing line about women back in.
BP: But chances are it wasn't missing.
BP: Single lines don't go missing. Pages do.
Red: so, taking the word of leviticus word by word is really quite unnecessary. Making deductions off of clarity clauses hooked to the end of a sentence isn`t quite logical
Red: anyways, we digress
BP: Sure it is. Wasn't jesus the one who went on about how the pharisee's weren't paying attention to the spirit of the law? The implicaitons and nuancess contained therein?
BP: Yes we do.
BP: You may go on.
Red: anyways, can you agree to this:
Red: it clearly says that men should not lie with men as they do with woman, which, in our case is all that matters, no?
BP: It says that, but it says that in reference to one's ability to make sacrifices to yaweh and Paul absolved gentile christians of the need to heed the purity laws of the Torah.
Red: great, so leviticus is moot
Red: that`s good enough for me
BP: Yep. :)
Red: let`s move on to Romans
BP: Oy.
BP: Okay.
BP: (This one's really easy.)
[lengthy pause]
BP: Red?
Red: yes, yes
BP: Oh. So I'm going to have to quote this am I/
BP: Fine.
BP: For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
BP: That's Romans 1 26
BP: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
BP: That's 27
BP: Now.
BP: It says women are doing unnatural things. Doesn't say what. Could be bestiality, could be smokin hot lesbian sex.
BP: Kinda hard to argue either way.
BP: In 27, it goes on specifying the evils of hot man sex.
BP: Pretty specific. Gay sex bad.
BP: But (no pun intended) look at who the letter was written to.
BP: Romans.
BP: The romans were famous for their acceptance of homo/bisexuality.
Red: right
BP: They promoted it within the ranks of their army.
BP: It was also a part of some religious practices where priests would sodomize their male acolytes.
Red: go on
BP: I'm sure the priestesses did it with anyone they wanted to as well.
BP: So gay sex was an integral part of a religious and governmental institution that threatened the very existence of this very young, and very weak revolutionary religion.
BP: The church, not to sound too redundant, was also few in number.
BP: And they were under constant persecution from the roman empire.
BP: I'm sure I don't need to tell you about the horrible atrocoties they faced in the Colosseum.
Red: no, no
BP: So we know that their numbers are dwindling and that gay sex is endorsed by the enemy.
BP: It would then be VITALLY important to the christian movement that the women bear as many children as they could.
BP: They couldn't be having sex with dogs or other women.
BP: They needed to serve a greater cause.
BP: That of jesus.
Red: oh, now
BP: Becuase his people were being persecuted.
BP: Do you see where this is going?
Red: i doubt highly that what paul wrote about was simply a population booster
BP: Nope. He didn't.
BP: Like I said (and this was key) it was also a sign of the roman empire.
BP: Both chritians and jews agreed on one thing.
BP: THe Romans were idolotrous.
BP: They worshipped many false gods.
BP: And many of their religious practices were barbaric.
Red: ...
BP: So by rejecting gay sex they differentiate themselves from the leading powers in a very key way. Early christianity was very big on moderation and that's how they approached sexual moderation.
Red: hmmm
BP: That was only immediately after jesus's death.
BP: Things actually got better later on.
Red: it`s a completely reasonable approach to the Word that I`ve never heard before
BP: Yes it is.
BP: But there's more!
Red: however, let`s continue back to the main trail with this being our medium:
BP: Ah, alright.
Red: many would interpret the Bible to mean that homosexuality is not what god wants for His people
Red: whether that`s true or nt
Red: and let`s go a step further
BP: Many do. Many are only looking at the words and not their meaning the greater context of the books they were written.
Red: sure
Red: within bounds
Red: however
BP: I take it you still have reservations.
Red: leviticus = purity-building, right?
Red: lol, for good cause
BP: For the sacrifices to Yaweh, yes.
Red: so, if God was trying to make sure his people were `pure for sacrifices, why would he then mislead them by saying that male homosexuality is not right?
BP: No, he said gay sex before sacrificing wasn't right. He said the same thing of straight sex with a woman on her period.
BP: In fact even after good old fashioned clean heterosex a man had to go through a minor cleansing ritual before he could sacrifice.
Red: time out
BP: lol
BP: Someone's a sports fan.
[he gets a yellow card next time he does that]
Red: is that what God told the people to do, or what they did anyways
Red: and yes, sports are good
BP: That's what it said in Leviticus and that's what they did.
BP: As for what god told people to do, that's another discussion entirely. ;)
Red: cleaning after heterosex is in lev?
BP: I'm not sure about that one.
BP: I believe it is.
Red: not finding it
BP: I haven't studied the bible in forever.
BP: Um....hm
Red: studying the bible can really be hard, huh?
BP: Yeah.
Red: tell you what, let`s move on
Red: for now
BP: There's too much.
BP: All those genealogies. :P
BP: okie doke.
Red: so
Red: as i may or may not have been decieved in thinking that homosexuality is not promoted in the bible...
Red: it`s what i believed
BP: Right.
Red: so, i had some LOOOONG, frustrated talks with God about this whole situation
BP: Been there.
Red: sure, who hasn`t?
BP: Straight people.
Red: lol, good point
Red: HAH
Red: well, anyways, remember me telling you about this internet site about gay people and the bible?
BP: Vaguely.
Red: well, assuming that homosexuality is condemned in the Bible, just assuming
Red: and that all sins can be forgiven, why can`t we just put two and two together here?
Red: can homosexuality be forgiven, too?
BP: First of all, depends on whether or not you are catholics.
Red: hold up
BP: Okay, drop the "s"
BP: LOL
Red: let me go on before we go into particulars
Red: lo
Red: lol
BP: K
Red: so, many would say that it cannot be simply forgiven like other sins
Red: why? because other sins are simply actions that happened once, and then can be forgiven if one wishes they hadn`t done it and asks forgiveness
Red: homosexuality is a state of being
BP: WAIT
BP: Er, timeout.
Red: lol
BP: No where in even the bible does it say homosexuality is wrong.
BP: Just gay sex.
BP: That is VERY important.
Red: aaahhhhhhhh
Red: however, what is homosexuality defined as?
BP: They didn't even have a word for homosexual back then.
Red: the desire to have gay sex, right?
BP: Yes, and the desire isn't called evil either.
Red: yes it is
BP: Also, sexuality was very loosely defined back then.
Red: just a sec
BP: 1
BP: 2
BP: 3
BP: Those nails can't get much shorter.
Red: hehe
Red: 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart
BP: That says woman. ;)
Red: jesus says that lusts are just as good as adultery
Red: oh, please
BP: He also says to gouge your eyes out if you do.
Red: you can`t tell me that it`s not applicable to both sides
BP: And the implication there is "married woman"
BP: Otherwise it's not adultery.
Red: AAAHHHHH
Red: you`re impossible
BP: I'm possible.
Red: you`ll never accept what i`m trying to tell you will you?
BP: I'm impressed I've lasted this long having a debate about one of the worst pieces of fiction ever written.
BP: What are you saying?
BP: If you're going to go for such a literal interpretation of that line, yo ushouldn't have eyes any more.
Red: what I`m trying to say is that I was once gay, and am now straight. I honestly believe that it`s because I realized my faults and went to God, asking him to change me
BP: I went to god, realized I was talking to myself and got over it.
Red: the fact is that all sins can be forgiven, and I believe that homosexuality is just a trick of satans to take us away from what god wants for us
BP: Sorry. Going to have to do better than that. If I don't believe in god, what makes you think I believe in his rebellious underlings?
Red: so, after putting this together, and fighting it out with god, i can honestly say that god has changed my sexual preferences
BP: Good for him.
Red: ugh
BP: What? Did you honestly think you could get me to see your light?
Red: no, no
BP: What's wrong then?
BP: I'm not even going to criticize you for going hetero.
BP: That's your deal.
BP: Fuck who you want.
BP: I just think you're fooling yourself if you think god's responsible for making you switch.
Red: i understand that
BP: What was the "ugh" about?
Red: it`s just that when i decided to live for my creator, i hoped that i would never have to let him down
Red: i guess in a way, i did think that I had a chance showing you what I believe, but then failed
BP: Your parents' divorce isn't your fault.
BP: No!
BP: Not so.
BP: You did what you came to do.
BP: You showed me.
Red: but you still don`t see what I see, right?
BP: And I really don't see how you can be feeling disappointment right now when one f the first things I told you was that I am an atheis.
BP: t
BP: I told you from the start that I didn't think the bible was worth consideration beyond that we give to the religions of ancient greece and egypt.
BP: Honestly, if it took you months of agnozing introspection, what made you think that one conversation with me would change me?
Red: i suppose that God did give everyone a chance to choose, knowing that some would not choose him
Red: NO, NO
Red: again, i didn`t think that I would just miraculously change you
BP: You want me to schedule a follow-up?
BP: I'd be happy to continue the conversation.
Red: when my friend took me off to church for the first time, i didn`t automatically change
BP: I didn't say you did.
Red: i just thought that I would expose you in any way possible
BP: In fact, I believe I said there were months of agonizing introspection.
BP: Thanks but I decided long ago I'd stop tormenting myself.
BP: I'm happier now than I ever was.
Red: well, maybe that day will come when things will change!
BP: Sure.
Red: hehehe
BP: There's always unhappiness in life.
BP: But that makes the good times all the more pleasurable.
BP: And I'm not going to cling to a childhood fantasy of a universal protector whenever I stub my toe or lose someone important to me.
Red: i understand
BP: You do?
Red: maybe
Red: i was in your spot once
Red: i think
BP: You were an atheist?
Red: as close as i can reasonably assume
Red: ah, yess
BP: I'm sorry was that a hiss?
BP: Like a snake?
Red: lol
BP: (Sorry, just trying to lighten the mood.)
Red: i get it
BP: I had a feeling you wouuld.
BP: would*
[no, I didn't]
Red: well, i will certainly be praying for you, whether that means anything to you or not
Red: not saying it should
BP: I think you no the answer to that.
Red: that came out wrong...
Red: ech
BP: Ew. I misspelled know.
[In my defense, it was very late at that point.]
Red: basically, what i meant was it doesn`t matter if you care or not, but i will be praying for you because I want to talk to God now about helping you change your mind, not you
BP: Okay.
Red: great!
Red: talk to you later!
BP: I hope you have a wonderful conversation with him.
BP: I certainly hope so.
Red: ;)
BP: Careful.
BP: I could interpret a wink wrong.
BP: Then I might start thinkging things.
Red: ???
BP: And sinning.
Red: oh, now
BP: I was kidding.
Red: i would hope that you don`t stereotype christians as petty people
BP: Red heads don't do it for me.
Red: good, good
Red: lol
Red: good stuff
BP: Petty? Eh, some. Foolish, certainly.
Red: now, now
Red: though we do believe other things, we´re still people that should be respected
Red: and not called names
BP: You're right. I should specify: your beliefs are foolish.
Red: easy
Red: personal opinions
BP: Are being shared.
BP: This is how friends are made.
BP: :)
Red: lol, fair enough
BP: You've been honest with me about yours.
BP: I'm being honest about mine.
BP: Friends, see?
Red: i c
Red: well, ttyl
BP: I'll hold you to that.
Red: lol
Red: bye
BP: Toodles.


Any thoughts? Comments? Suggestions for what to say if and when we speak again? I've never met an "ex-gay" before and I'd really like to prod him further. So to speak. He didn't get very specific about what it was that led his conversion. There's digging to be done. Hopefully he won't read this. Hah! Time to delete my blog from my facebook profile!